julius ceasar: patriotic anology, or murder?.

[Optimus_Prime]

im assuming most have read this play. what do you think?.

[Ganymede]

I'm not sure I understand the question.  But I read the play a long long time ago.  

From what I remember, I read Brutus' death as the real tragedy, because his patriotism was maniuplated into betrayal and murder by the scheming Cassius and his gang.  Brutus thought he was working for the common good, but really he was working for those opposed to Caesar.  

I did read this in high school which could be why I remember in patriotically.  However, I've become cynical in my old age.    (Actually, I'm only in my twenties, but that feels old compared to my teens.)  If I get a chance, I'll brush up on my Caesar and maybe give you a different response.  

But, in the meantime, I would be interested to hear how you read the play.  Whose death affected you the most?  

[Optimus_Prime]

the death that speaks to me the most, ironicly is the catalyst. ceasar himself, mainly because i know what he had planned for rome, and who he was.

[shaxper]

Optimus_Prime said:

the death that speaks to me the most, ironicly is the catalyst. ceasar himself, mainly because i know what he had planned for rome, and who he was.

Only having read the first half of this play (and I'm the administrator of this board.  Imagine!), I can tell you that for me the death of Caesar is the death of an ideal.  Whether or not Caesar was slowly murdering that idea with his own actions, with the death of Caesar came the certainty that Rome would never again match the dream.  It's a disillusionment still highly evident in Antony & Cleopatra, where heroes become irresponsible embarrassments and the all powerful ruler of Rome is a sneaky, dishonourable Machiavellian.  

[Ganymede]

To me, I think the death of Caesar is moving because of its implications for Brutus.  Caesar trusted Brutus and Brutus betrayed that trust.  For the rest of the play, Brutus has to carry the pain of knowing that he betrayed his friend.  The way the play is structured, it seems that Brutus is at the core.  His death closes the play and is the most tragic-- he was a good citizen who allowed himself to be manipulated.  His "tragic flaw" was that he was too patriotic, placing the country above his friendship.  If he would have faced Caesar with the accusations, instead of blindly following Cassius, things might not have ended so tragically.  Yet, it was all meant to happen-- it was foretold in the stars.  

A very interesting play.  I think it gets less attention nowadays because historically it has received too much attention.  But there's a lot to it if you want to dig deeper.  I haven't even touched on the female characters!  

But that's a discussion for another day...

[Desdemona]

Ganymede, you're absolutely right about Brutus' one tragic flaw; choosing the country above his friends is what makes him the complete opposite of Marc Anthony. Shakespeare literaly shows that in the speeches both Marc Anthony and Brutus give:

in III, ii Brutus addresses his people like this:
'Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:'

while Anthony says:
'Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;'

The word order is of major importance here. It is the reason why Brutus loses from Anthony (I think...)

[Bardolph]

in III, ii Brutus addresses his people like this:
'Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my  
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:'

while Anthony says:
'Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;'

The word order is of major importance here. It is the reason why Brutus loses from Anthony (I think...)

There is a flat unraised spirit in just reading these words.  Brutus addresses the crowd at the heighth of their curiosity.  They will strain to hear him no matter how he addresses them.  Brutus' speech is inspired, and it seems at first to fulfill his purpose.  And that is to limit the inroads that MA can make into the hards of the plebians.   He speaks.  They hear him.  It is no different than then stunned silence of a nation after JFK's death.  It doesn't matter if you loved him or not.  It matters that the near future is uncertain.  

The stage interpretation by Charlton Heston was complete genius.  "Friends."  The crowd does not hear him.  They know that they are not friends with the Triumvirs.  "Romans."  Still the crowd is restless.  To be a Roman is to be a member of a cast system.  They are not going to be manipulated by this friend of an ambitious Ceasar, the killer of Pompey and Crassus.  "Countrymen."  Still they show MA no respect even though he has appealed to the only commonality between himself and the assembled masses.  "Lend me your ears."  Now they are still.  Now the mighty MA, perhaps for the first time ever, begs something of them.  And finally, "I come to bury Ceasar, not to praise him."  Finally they are silent.  He comes not to argue against the honorable Brutus, but to perform a simple and holy Rite.  These are simple people, endowed the power to change their empire, but they don't know this.  They are completely disarmed just as if they now take themselves to be in a church.  They take their pews and wait for the short homily after which they expect to set aside their memories of Ceasar with the same haste that they forgot the revered Pompey.  

This is the genius of WS.  Brutus has attempted to show such control of the crowd that he has stolen their hearts from any attempt by MA to win it back to a soft memory of Ceasar's brief reign.  Brutus departs with the confidence of an orator.  MA now goes to work by making clear from the outset that he does not seem to oppose Brutus.   Then, by steps he uses the power of drama, the sight of Ceasar's body, the memory of the crowds fickle shame, their greed for the funds he offers in his will and finally in the private walks that he has left them.  Then, at the climax, MA does what Brutus only thought he had done.  He slams shut their hearts against any possibility of continued speeches.  Ceasar is now, for the first time, a complete victim.  

This is why MA so handily defeats Brutus.  He uses small dramatic steps to walk the mob through a set of emotional transformations.  From loud angry mob, to silent angry mob, to an assembly with an open  mind, to an assembly that pities Ceasar, then a mob that feels that it has been robbed of Ceasar, and finally back into the original loud angry mob but with a transformed motivation.  

MA is a dramatist.  That is why he wins.  

[Ganymede]

Excellent interpretation of that speech!  I'm very impressed.  

I didn't know about Charlton Heston's portrayal of MA.  (Or if I knew, I forgot I knew).  Could you tell me more about the production in general?  Who played Brutus?  Caesar?  When was this?  

Thanks!

[Bardolph]

Julius Ceasar
Director Stuart Burge, 1970. Featuring Charlton Heston, Jason Robards, John Gielgud, Richard Johnson, Robert Vaughn, Richard Chamberlain, Diana Rigg. 116 min. Video/C 1392

Robards was Brutus.  I was not as impressed with him.  His acting is competent but he seems emotionally flat on stage.  Heston's interpretation of Antony was brilliant.  

[Ganymede]

Thanks!  

[Harry]

Has anyone else here read Colleen McCulloch's Masters of Rome series? Five massive volumes, with a sixth promised but not yet written. Her story starts, in First Man in Rome, with the marriage of Gaius Marius to Julius Ceasar's aunt and ends, in Caesar, with the death of Pompey the Great. The sixth novel is supposed to be titled The October Horse and will probably include the events of Shakespeare's play. So far, I have yet to find any outright historical error in these novels. Some of her interpretations may be questionable, but all are based on ancient sources and reasonable inferences from those sources. You can't read these novels without changing your ideas about Caesar, Brutus, Cassius, Pompey, and Mark Antony.

By the way, I don't think Caesar killed Crassus. Didn't he die in the east in a military disaster against the Parthians? And, it was the Egyptians who killed Pompey.

[Bardolph]

Agents of Ptolemy killed Pompey at Ceasar's request when he arrived in Egypt.  I recall reading that Ceasar had Crassus killed but I don't recall the details.  I think that Plutarch covers this.  I'll take a look.  

After Ceasar's near miraculous route of Pompey at Pharsalia Pompey was not himself.  His misfortunes took him to the shores of Egypt, this according to the section on Ceasar which is silent on the passing of Crassus.  

Plutarch reports of Crassus' death under Pompey, "To add to the misfortune (of Julia's death), news was brought soon after that Crassus was slain by the Parthians; and in him another great obstacle to a civil war was removed."  

You're right I found the citation I was thinking of earlier and it says that Ceasar conspired against both Crassus and Pompey.  

Pompey was killed by agents of Ptolemy when he was advised that it would be wise to do a favor for Ceasar.  This was soon after Pompey's route and not long before Ceasar's arrival in Egypt.  Roman soldiers were among those that betrayed Pompey and slew him as he took the hand of one of Ptolemy's diplomats.