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Post by Harry on Jul 5, 2002 22:16:58 GMT -5
Thou blind fool, Love, what dost thou to mine eyes, That they behold, and see not what they see? They know what beauty is, see where it lies, Yet what the best is take the worst to be. If eyes corrupt by over-partial looks Be anchor'd in the bay where all men ride, Why of eyes' falsehood hast thou forged hooks, Whereto the judgment of my heart is tied? Why should my heart think that a several plot Which my heart knows the wide world's common place? Or mine eyes seeing this, say this is not, To put fair truth upon so foul a face? In things right true my heart and eyes have erred, And to this false plague are they now transferr'd.
So, now, truth will out. Maybe the Dark Lady isn't really as beautiful as previous sonnets have described her. As this sonnet comes after the first sonnets that describe the Youth/Dark Lady affair, I wonder if he is not reacting to the affair.
The relationship between the Poet and the Dark Lady has always been ambiguous. There has been the attraction/repulsion of sexual pleasure. There has been the fair/foul nature of the dark beauty of the mistress. Now, the Poet seems to add a dimension of realising, on one level, that he has deceived himself.
Am I deceiving myself? I have tried to leave these discussions open to encourage participation by others. I'm no expert. I don't want to discourage ideas and contributions by those who know more than I. What would encourage such participation? Should I do more in the way of a line-by-line exposition?
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The_Turtle
Denizen
Nay, faith, let not me play a woman; I have a beard coming
Posts: 52
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Post by The_Turtle on Jul 9, 2002 10:01:29 GMT -5
I've mentioned it a few times before, but this time the poet (let's call him Will) is quite bluntly calling the dark lady a prostitute: the bay where all men ride
the wide world's common place
I am intrigued however by the adress to Love in the first line. It implies that Will still loves the lady despite her promiscuity. I must say I like what you're doing with the sonnets, Harry. I don't always have the time to respond quickly and sometimes I haven't anything to add at all. You sell yourself short by saying that you are no expert. You don't have to be. Nevertheless I like to read your observations.
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Post by Harry on Jul 9, 2002 19:02:19 GMT -5
Well, you're certainly finding enough references to make me think that the Dark Lady, at least in part, was a prostitute--or, at the least, promiscuous.
Yes, I think it is part of the attraction of this affair that the Poet can still love the Dark Lady. Of course, we don't know that the sonnets are in chronological order. Quite a few try to arrange them in a different "chronological" order. But, here he does seem to realise that his earlier descriptions of her beauty were false. It is a complex and, therefore, a real affair. Love may, or may not, be blind but it does tend to see what it wants to see. Also, perhaps this sonnet should be looked at in the light of #138 where deception, and self-deception, are carried to dizzying heights.
But I'm not an expert. Heck, I'm not even a lit major. My degrees were in geology. I came late to the sonnets and am still learning a lot. I do like the format of posting the sonnet and a few "starter" comments. When it works, it leaves a lot of room for others to expand into. I know my comments aren't complete, and I'm not sure even an expert could write a complete exposition on some of the more complex sonnets.
I've tried to keep away from line-by-line "translation." However, I don't think anyone should back off participating in these discussions because they're having trouble with the language. Sonnet language is very complex. Not understanding a word, phrase, or line is par for the course. It isn't dumb to ask, "what does that mean?" I'll do my best to help. I hope others will help as well.
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Juliet
Denizen
There's many a man hath more hair than wit.
Posts: 53
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Post by Juliet on Aug 2, 2002 1:32:37 GMT -5
Harry--you're being far too modest! You give a great opening interpretation of the sonnets that lead us to further discussion. Somebody has to leap in and create an opening opinion, and you do an excellent job! Sometimes it's hard to find time in our busy lives to post, but when we do, it's always worthwhile.
I don't know...The sonnet is definitely callling the Dark Lady promiscuous or a prostitute, but I think we should take it with a grain of salt. To me, the sonnet definitely sounds like it was written in a fit of pique--dashed off and sent after an argument. (Of course whether or not the sonnets are autobiograpical is another matter...I rather think they are.)
A few lines confuse me: Yet what the best is take the worst to be, and Why should my heart think that a several plot Which my heart knows the wide world's common place? I'd be glad of some insights here. The first is simply oddly worded. The second, however, is again referring to the Dark Lady's wantoness, contrasting a "several plot" with "wide world's common place." Now, this is most likely a quirk of the Elizabethan language on the word "several" (anybody?) but if it isn't, then what is Shakespeare saying? A plot shared by "Several" men is shown preferable to a common ground shared by all? This is an interesting moral, if that is what's going on. Are Shakespeare and the young man the "several" men? If so, he seems to be almost glad of their relationship with the Dark Lady, while at the same time accusing her of being no better than a prostitute, shared with the whole world. (?) I think I'm going off-track here, but I"m just trying to puzzle it out. Any ideas?
~Juliet~
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Post by Harry on Aug 5, 2002 1:17:07 GMT -5
Dear Juliet,
I'm trying to avoid coming across as an all-knowing expert. Heaven knows I am not. I am a student of the sonnets as much as if I were actually still enrolled in college. I do try to offer starter ideas, but I do have some help in the form of books. I also have my own readings which, if not informed by all the literary knowledge a true lit major might employ, at least are valid for being mine.
I read the first of your lines as saying that the Poet's eyes, which see beauty in the Dark Lady, see ugliness in those of conventional beauty. That is, if the Dark Lady is beautiful, then fair skin and blonde hair must be ugly.
"Several plot" strikes me as a way of saying she is promiscuous. I recall a "procreation" sonnet which urged the Youth to plow a fertile field. When one thinks about it, plowing can be very suggestive sexually. "Common place" can refer to unfenced "commons" where every villager was entitled to graze his cattle. G.B. Evans, The Sonnets, is helping me along here. He notes a link on "several plot" and "common place" as sexual wordplay. I hope this is a help.
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