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Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2002 22:37:47 GMT -5
I'm going to take some time to gather my own thoughts on this subject, but I'd like to hear your ideas, as well.
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Post by Ganymede on Mar 28, 2002 23:06:41 GMT -5
Ambiguous, much like the gender of its heroine. Personally, I find the ending to be very problematic. Especially because Orsino can't seem to get over the fact that Cesario is Viola. He still calls her Cesario even after he knows he's really a she. Of course, this can all be taken lightly. I could see someone making a joke of the whole thing. But it'd be unsettling laughter, what with Malvolio's promise of revenge and the all-to-perfect marriages that may betray the desires that iniated them. Will Viola and Orsino or Olivia and Sebastian really be happy? Will Maria be happy with Toby? And what's with Feste's song. "The rain, it raineth every day." Doesn't sound too happy to me, and the fool should know. He's been the master of poignant insights throughout the play.
Perhaps, the end of Twelfth Night is a sad ending thinly disguised as a happy one. Can the illusion last? Do we want it to? What does this all say about gender, especially in Shakespeare's time? In a time where such seemingly harmless play as taking on a male disguise could be punished by death and where women's roles were constricting to say the least, Twelfth Night's end could point to dissatisfaction with one's customary roles and with the strict rules that enforce them.
Yet, while Viola may find freedom in her disguise, she also becomes trapped by it, unable to change out of them at the play's end. Unlike As You Like It, Twelfth Night's gender play is much more bittersweet. Gender play can get one into real trouble-- a sword fight or worse. And although Viola gets her man in the end, it's really Cesario who has attracted Orsino. Viola has not attracted him in her own right. Which is why Orsino keeps calling her Cesario. He doesn't want to let him go.
And let's not forget Antonio, whose love for Sebastian is completely unrequited in the end. And poor Andrew has been ousted by Sir Toby.
I could go on and on (and did-- I wrote a whole senior project on this sort of stuff). Gender is my passion, baby.
If you have anything to add, feel free. These are just my opinions. I'm always interested to hear any new ideas.
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Post by shaxper on Mar 29, 2002 9:55:29 GMT -5
Excellent points from the cross-dressing comedy expert I think this ties in well with your Sonnet discussion (which I intend to reply to next). In the Sonnets, Shakespeare is trying to decide what gender really is, what makes someone a male or female and how important that distinction actually is? Twelfth Night shares that spirit, but it also senses the pull of Elizabethan Society, refusing to ever allow gender fluidity and attempting to "rerout" troublesome passions. Regardless of how similar Viola and Sebastion look, they're certainly not the same person, so how can we expect Olivia to be satisfied with Sebastian as a substitute as if he'd be Cesario with a penis? I definately view it as a problematic ending, as well.
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Post by Bardolph on Apr 29, 2002 23:43:59 GMT -5
12thNt has a happy ending. I've never seen it staged any other way. It ends with final revelations of character and with a consumation of the pair bonding that has been taking place throughout the play. Orsino's confusion can be taken as comedic, but there is perhaps an inside joke at work. Orsino and Viola will be married. Orsino will still have Cesario. He will be a husband to Viola but a friend to Cesario in that rare form of intimacy that transcends gender discinctions. This is an example of 'the unities' in literature. The polar opposites of theme, including gender, are united. The dance of nymphs and reapers in The Tempest is a larger example of this. Here there are unities of gender, age, growth and decay, birth and death.
The gender of the heroine is not ambiguous. The superimposition of masculine attire and manners on the feminine frame can also result in identity by contrast. Her rubious lips and soft skin were very apparent to Orsino. I think that WS suggests a sensitivity to gender which transcends the outer show of gender. It's as if he had an understanding of gender identity at a chemical level, without an understanding of pheromones as a catalyst for such recognition.
There's no disguising the ending. It's a happy one. It is the revelation of the truth and the assertion of the true aspect of the characters that heralds the ending, like so many of his works. The plays of WS didn't just end with the conclusion of the action. It is known that the actors danced at the end. The format for such dances could have extended ideas from the play. The form and pairing of dances might have exploited comedic themes from the play. We can't know, but it's fun to speculate on the possibilities.
It was neither Viola nor Cesario that attracted Orsino. That love is not unrequited. It is the person. It is the spark in the very center of the eye, the ego that exists apart from gender identity. If not, then it is Viola in the contrast provided by Cesario's clothing. It is the feminine beauty in the young servant that Orsino most notices.
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Post by Ganymede on Apr 30, 2002 9:33:23 GMT -5
Any Shakespeare play can be seen any number of ways. There is no one standard interpretation. That is why Shakespeare's plays have attracted admirers over so many centuries.
I agree that Twelfth Night can be seen as a having a happy ending, but I don't like seeing it that way. Personally, I feel that the ending is complicated not only by the "perfect" weddings, who feel too perfect and therefore faulty, but also by Malvolio's mistreatment and treat of revenge. Certainly, we aren't exactly expected to take him seriously, but part of me feels for him. He was an arrogant steward, but to me his punishment did not fit the crime. He and Viola are similar in that both have transgressed boundaries, he class and she gender. And yes, Viola is rewarded while Malvolio is punished, but her disguise has trapped her-- the audience does not see her as a woman after Act 1. Perhaps she may have reappeared in a dance to end the play during the Renaissance, but such dances are no longer used. The play itself does not contain Viola's "transformation" back into her woman's weeds.
I believe how one reads the ending depends on one's perspective as well as who's directing the play. For example, Trevor Nunn's Twelfth Night, while fun at times, has a very somber ending. Even though he decides to add closure by giving us a glimpse of the wedding, he has Feste singing his somber song to end the film. In this last shot of Feste, the weather looks dismal, cloudy, overcast. For me, it cast a shadow on the all-to-happy ending.
Perhaps you could share which stage or film productions you've seen of Twelfth Night? I'd be really interested to hear how other directors have interpreted the play.
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Post by Bardolph on Apr 30, 2002 10:40:00 GMT -5
I didn't mean to sound too dogmatic. I was going to post a note on the validity of a wide range of interpretation but I was running low on time. I agree that there are ranges of interpretation, but I believe that they must be supported by the text.
I have seen the Trevor Nunn, the early BBC version and a community college stage version. I do think of Nunn's ending has having been happy. The 'perfection' of weddings does not fall on my like a fault. This is a dramatic ending typical for WS. The perfect marriage of Isabelle and the Duke in M for M is an example. Ferdinand and Miranda is another. Paulina and Camillo in WT is yet another. The culmination of dramatic action with a wedding or with a wedding to be is a well known element of Shakespearean dramatic structure. I don't see "too perfect" as faulty but as a successful interpretation of his dramatic aim.
The question of the problem of Malvolio is an odd one. I think that it is meant to be taken out of the context of the play. Olivia attempt to heal the rift that has taken place. But Malvolio is not entirely 'inside' the play. I agree with scholars who consider him a lampoon of the Puritan movement. Their hostility to the theatrical sub-culture appears to have stimulated his harsh treatment as a dramatic response. Otherwise, WS has been needlessly cruel to a character who needed a tongue lashing more than a sound thrashing. To put this in context, read 2.3.134-147 (Oxford).
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N.N.W
Money Lender
Posts: 35
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Post by N.N.W on May 29, 2002 9:25:41 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300] Twelth Night is focused around transgressions - a woman masquerading as a man - and a man acting above his station - Viola breaks this taboo to serve Orsino - she supports the established social structure, where as, Malvolio seeks to further his position on the back of the society - He must be seen as actively put down at the end of the piece! The Usurper is cast down, the masquerading woman actively seeks to restore her gender, in a subservient position to the Masculine. Society stands unblemished! [/glow]
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Post by shaxper on Jun 4, 2002 20:30:29 GMT -5
Excellent points. Ones I hadn't considered before. Thank you ;D
I'm still not comfortable with where Antonio is left at the end though. He sacrifices everything for Sebastian and his doubt that Sebastian has crossed him is never fully reconciled, nor are his love and compassion ever requited. He should at least be given someone to marry at the end.
Sebastion's marriage to Viola is a little problematic too. You can't simply substitute Cesario (who does not exist) with a man that looks like him. It's not a concern if Viola's shrewish qualities are played to the extreme so that we only see her as something Cesario must escape from, but then we've left innocent Sebastian with that shrew. Either we have some regard for her (in which case, she's been short-changed) or we have no regard for her (in which case, Sebastian's been short-changed)
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Post by Ganymede on Jun 12, 2002 23:01:57 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300] Twelth Night is focused around transgressions - a woman masquerading as a man - and a man acting above his station - Viola breaks this taboo to serve Orsino - she supports the established social structure, where as, Malvolio seeks to further his position on the back of the society - He must be seen as actively put down at the end of the piece! The Usurper is cast down, the masquerading woman actively seeks to restore her gender, in a subservient position to the Masculine. Society stands unblemished! [/glow] Yet, Viola remains in costume as a male, and Orsino keeps calling her Cesario, her masculine name. By the end of the play, who can even clearly remember what Viola looked like as a female way back in Act 1? And even then, her femininity was only an imitation, being played by a boy (granted, like all other female characters, yet, the cross-dressing as well as some of the lines serve as reminders of this fact throughout). I see your point about Malvolio, but I think the reason why his punishment doesn't sit right with me is because I tend to hate Sir Toby by the end of the play, and therefore distrust Maria, who has orchestrated the whole thing to earn his love. Sir Toby's ultimate betrayal of Andrew Aguecheek seems overly harsh, even if we've seen it coming. At the end, Sir Toby doesn't seem quite so fun anymore. He becomes bitter, and I no longer wish to side with him. Although Malvolio does have it coming, because his punishment is orchestrated by characters I feel ambiguous about, I cannot cheer when he is expelled. Even Feste seems overly cruel at the end, which is representative of Fate's often harsh reality. Malvolio insults Feste, and Feste, along with Toby and the others, uses Malvolio's weaknesses to drag him down. It's hard to say how Shakespeare's audiences would have taken it. Perhaps the ending would not have been quite so ambiguous to them, or at least to most of them. Perhaps they would have cheered. But I'd like to think that Shakespeare put some of that ambiguity there. Of course, just because I'd like to think it, doesn't mean it's true.
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Post by shaxper on Jun 12, 2002 23:10:14 GMT -5
I wonder if the harshness of the ending would make more sense in its propper cultural context though. This play was commissioned for a Twelfth Night celebration, in which traditional social roles were reveresed and usurped for the day. The audience would have presumably been riding high on a sense of power and release, and the harsh actions of Sir Toby might have been exactly in keeping with the feel of the hour. Twelfth Night was a time to flip things over, usurp, and give no thoughts to the reprecussions of actions. Perhaps Shakespeare was playing towards this, or perhaps the excessive harshness was intended to serve as a bitter commentary on these potentially harmful releases. I think it could go either way.
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N.N.W
Money Lender
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Post by N.N.W on Jun 16, 2002 7:11:12 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300] Feste and Sir Toby are agents of misrule - they have to be disliked by the end of the piece - like the twelth night revels they have their time and place, as questioners of the established norm, but again society must be seen to prevail at the end - it would have been dangerous for WS to show any other ending... would have been read as agit-prop... [/glow]
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Lord3
Money Lender
'Tis a lucky day, boy, and we'll do good deeds on't
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Post by Lord3 on Jul 9, 2002 23:13:38 GMT -5
I was sorry to see this discussion end. But we have to remember the end of the title... Or, What You Will.
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Post by shaxper on Jul 9, 2002 23:39:04 GMT -5
Discussions never end, here at The Tavern. They just lie in wait for new thoughts
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Juliet
Denizen
There's many a man hath more hair than wit.
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Post by Juliet on Aug 2, 2002 2:33:55 GMT -5
And here I am, hoping to revive this all with my humble thoughts...
I love 12th Night, and you all are making great points. I seem to come down somewhere in the middle of everyone.
I'd agree with Ganymede that 12th Night doesn't have a "happy" ending. IActually, I once wrote a revised ending to the play in a class (in iambic pentameter, adding in a few extra characters, including a bar wench for Sir Andrew) where everyone ended up happily enough, but in retrospect I think better of it. The play shouldn't end happily, at least not completely.
In my personal opinion, Viola and the Duke, and Olivia and Sebastian, end up happily, Maria and Toby somewhat happily, and poor Malvolio, Sir Andrew, and Antonio absolutely unhappily.
I guess my personal take on why this is is that Shakespeare was rebelling against Elizabethan comedic conventions. As many of you have said, society had to be triumphant at the end: weddings made, the social order restored, men with women, and all's happy. And, superficially, Shakespeare did this. But it seems to me that he didn't really want to; he was exploring a more realistic comedy, where all the strings aren't tied up in neat little knots, where everyone doesn't end up happy, where even good people get the fuzzy end of the lollipop. Sir Andrew is stupid, and so he's punished. Malvolio is vain. Antonio is a saintly, benevolent rescuer, yet he is punished as well--perhaps because he is obviously gay and in love with Sebastian. It's not fair, but it's more true to life, and it's a lot deeper of an ending than most of the comedies, I think. Like Measure for Measure, it's been called a "problem play" for good reason. (And Bardolph, I would strongly argue with your assumption that Isabella and the Duke get married in M for M. No doubt in Shakespeare's day, that was the way it had to be played, but the whole ending of M for M is very odd and sketchy--Isabella never replies to the offer of marriage! I've been wanting to start a topic on it, as it's equally interesting) So I'd say that the ending of 12th Night is very unhappy.
Yet, Ganymede, I disagree with you on the subject of Orsino and Caesario/Viola. I admit the whole addressing Viola as a boy until the end of the play is a bit strange, but I would explain that as merely an indication and acceptance of the fact that Viola, of necessity, is still wearing her boy's clothes until the end of the play (unlike Rosalind, who changes) Shakespeare, it seems to me, knows that he doesn't have time for Viola to change, so he decides to brave it out and write this slight incongruity into the script, rather than ignore it.
(Oh drat...the post is too long. I'll have to do it in 2 parts...)
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Juliet
Denizen
There's many a man hath more hair than wit.
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Post by Juliet on Aug 2, 2002 2:34:26 GMT -5
Nonwithstanding this, I think Viola and Orsino have the only true romance in the entire play. Theirs is the most healthy relationship, and the most romantic, because it is based not on infatuation or appearances but on friendship. They are clearly intimate throughout the entire play, and their attraction should be evident. Orsino's "love" for Olivia is nonsensical, a sickening infatuation (go back to the opening speech, "If music be the food of love," to see the "unhealthy" metaphors.. "Give me excess of it, so that ,surfeiting, the appetite may sicken and so die." Viola rescues him from this unreal and unnatural love; their bond as man and man is so close that, when Viola is revealed as a woman, it is perfectly natural that they marry. After all, they've been in love the whole time, and Orsino was too stubbornly heterosexual to notice.
Sebastian and Olivia is a more troublesome couple. If Sebastian is a male version of Viola, then it is perhaps a bit plausable, but in the whole it's rather a gyp for Olivia, perhaps a lesbian, and it puts Sebastian in a fairly oafish and "let me have sex with this hot woman--forget the consequences" light. (His line: You are wed (?) to both a maid and man, is cute though...the pun on him being a virgin. It almost redeems him. Almost) He also rejects Antonio, who he was apparently sleeping with (Antonio's line about Sebastian, "both day and night did we keep company," is more than mildy suggestive). But there is hope for that couple, which is more than can be said for the rest of the characters. In Feste's last song, their fates are pretty much revealed.
"A Foolish thing was but a toy," definitely the poor Sir Andrew
"'Gainst knaves and theives men shut their gates," O poor pirate but honest Antonio
"When I came at last to wive/by swaggering I could never thrive," much to the vain Malvolio
"When I came unto my beds/with tosspots still had drunken heads," certainly drunken Toby and Maria as well.
Not hopeful for any of them, but certainly apt. It's also a bit reminiscent of the 7 ages of man from AYLI
that's why I love the Trevor Nunn 12th Night so much--it really shows the rain as well as the sun. None of the previous characters end happily, even though Viola/Sebastian/Orsino/Olivia certainly do. It's a beautiful movie, overall, with great chemistry between Viola and Orsino, and the ending shot of the movie, the sun shining between clouds over the sea, is just about perfect.
I still have sympathy, although some mixed feelings, about Sir Toby and Maria. I love Feste. He's not quite mortal...yes, he's cruel at the end to Malvolio, but it is only Justice..."The whirligig of time brings round his revenges."
~Juliet~
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